Episode 108: Noué Kirwan, author of Long Past Summer
Noué Kirwan introduces us to the inspiration behind her debut novel, LONG PAST SUMMER.
Long Past Summer looks at the delicate and powerful thread that binds and breaks friends and flames.
USA Today bestselling author bestselling author, Jamie Beck describes Kirwan as “a welcome, smart new voice in romantic women’s fiction.”
“Long Past Summer delves into family, friendships, and romantic love, deftly examining how our childhood influences our perceptions, and how discrimination impacts women trying to strike a balance between their own ambitions and their personal relationships.” (Jamie Beck).
And as Kirkus reviews says, the novel is “developed with skill and empathy, provides “pitch-perfect humor”, and “addresses what it's like to grow up with absent and deceased parents as well as the pressure on Black professionals to overperform while conforming to White norms.”
In our episode, Noué shares her inspiration for the novel, writing advice, and what’s she’s currently reading.
Find book club questions, food ideas, and Noué’s recipe, for a bourbon smash at Book Club Bites!
Books Mentioned:
Long Past Summer by Noué Kirwan (Bookshop.org / Amazon )
Daisy Jones & the Six by Taylor Jenkins Reid (Bookshop.org / Amazon & Audiobook Amazon audible / Libro.fm )
Circe by Madeline Miller (Bookshop.org / Amazon )
Matrix by Lauren Groff (Bookshop.org / Amazon )
Connect with the author:
Transcript:
** Transcript created using AI (so please forgive the typos!) **
Lainey Cameron
This book! People are chatting about it. I love that it's women's fiction, but it's got that romance and friendship angle, kind of second chance romance, if I'm understanding correctly.
Noué Kirwan
Yes.
Lainey Cameron
I am. I'm jazzed that we're going to talk about this. So let's start with where are you joining me from today,
Noué Kirwan
I am in my living room in New York City Harlem, New York.
Lainey Cameron
And let's start with the book Long Past Summer and have you tell the listeners a little bit about it, because they might not have had the chance to read it yet.
Noué Kirwan
As you said, it's contemporary romance, women's fiction, romance. It's about a woman named Mikaela, who comes from a small town in Georgia and has big aspirations as a teenager to make her mark in New York City. And she comes and she does I mean, she finds that it's a little more difficult than she expected it to be. And right when she's right on the precipice of all that she's dreamt for her ex from when she used to live in her little Georgia, small town, comes back into the picture and kind of shakes up everything.
Lainey Cameron
I love that you kind of took the personal aspects and then made them hit her in her professional life. I thought that was really interesting. I did a similar thing with my first book. And what I like about that is, you know, people tend to think that romance or women's fiction books have to be about the home and domestic life and they can't be around our professional lives. And I love that you show that like her professional life is everything to her right, she sweats. She's really like, what's the past tense of strove striven worked really hard. To get where she is me a writer, me really, I loved that you kind of set it all in that professional domain. So you've got all these impacts of the friendship coming back and the past love, but set in this world where it's affecting her professional career, I thought that was really clever.
Noué Kirwan
I thought about myself. I knew that, you know, someone affecting my career would, you know, shake me up a little.
Lainey Cameron
That's always one of my favorite questions is tell me a little bit more about the inspiration for the novel? Where did the original seed of the idea come from? And did you bring different things together?
Noué Kirwan
Yeah, it was a it was a ton of different things like I've always had like a love hate relationship with like small town romance, just because as a city dweller, I've lived in small towns, or small ish towns, but I'm from New York, the small town life is very nice. And you know, knowing everyone is very nice. But there's this impression that only the dwellers of small towns are like salt of the earth type of people. And that city people are, are different or more cutthroat and that can be true, but then you also have you know, a situation where you're you not like your neighbors or your neighbors know you and and that sort of thing, even in a in a city like you can happen in apartment buildings even I wanted to, like one of those small town love stories, except that not have like the careerist woman go back to her small town and discover her old love. I wanted it to be the inverse of that where her old love comes to the big city, and she just discovers love.
Lainey Cameron
Yeah, one of my things that drives me crazy crazy. If you've watched like whole Hallmark movies is you know, the big career woman goes home for Christmas. It's always Christmas. There's snow, and there's sleigh bells, and she goes to her small hometown. And by the end of the movie, she gives up her entire life for the guy and opens a cupcake shop when she used to be a lawyer. And I'm like, come on, why is she selling cupcakes? Why did she have to sell cupcakes?
Noué Kirwan
Exactly. That was that was like, one of the seeds of it. I love Hallmark movies have watched them forever. Definitely like the inverse of that. So that was like the first little nugget. Another little nugget was, there's a song by Aretha Franklin. It's an old song from the 80s that used to always make me so sad. And it was about- it's Aretha Franklin's character singing from the point of view of a girl who got left behind in her small town by this love, like her first love. And I was like, how would that be if it was gender swapped? If it was the guy who got left behind in his in their small town for a girl who went off and did her own thing? And I was like, I liked that too. And it you know, and then there were other things that came together and I was just like, huh, and it started germinating and it it had its first like inclination and incarnation and then it kind of developed and snowballed into a book.
I love this. And it's interesting because this one came to my attention because one of my personal friends and favorite authors Lyn Liao Butler actually like pinged me about it. She was sharing on I think, on Instagram or something and I was like, Well, that sounds really interesting. One of the things that Lyn and I kind of were discussing is, is this women's fiction or romance and Lyn felt very strongly that this is women's fiction because your main character, what does she have to learn? Like, what is she going to struggle with as we watch her over the course of this novel?
I think she struggles with what the requirements of love are. Because I think she starts the book, thinking that it's something that will impede other things. And I think as she moves through the book, she is learning that it's a give a take, and learns also to kind of forgive herself for thinking that she had to either have it right at the outset, or it was never going to happen for and I think a lot of times for women in general, there's this feeling that like time's passing, and you have to get on it, you know, you know, like those personal aspects of your life, you have just, you know, the clock is ticking, and you're, you know, ovaries or whatever.
Lainey Cameron
And I'm gonna read a little bit of a quote from two people actually, well, one is Kirkus Reviews, because I thought they said something really interesting. They said that you captured really well, the sense of what it's like to grow up with absent and deceased parents, as well as the pressure on black professionals to outperform or over perform while conforming to white norms. And I think this is really interesting, because you also see it in many immigrant stories and women's fiction, where there's this sense of parental and also like just obligation to do better or to try harder, because you're trying to prove not just yourself, but an entire generation. In the case of immigrants or an entire like class. In the case of race of people, like you're not, you're not only performing for you, you're performing for everyone. And that's such a mental pressure on us as humans. And so I thought that was really interesting that that's what cookers picked up on in your book. And by the way, Kirkus Reviews, if anyone's ever read them, they are the hardest thing to get them to say something nice about your book. And they say lots of nice things about your book here. So congratulations. Yeah. And then the second review that really struck me was by someone who has been a guest on the podcast before who I love to death, Jamie Beck. She's also a great supporter of other authors. And I love how Jamie talks about how, just like her books, she says it's all about family friendships and romantic love, and how our childhood influences our perception and how discrimination impacts women trying to strike a balance between their own ambitions and their personal relationships. And so you got a lot of complex topics that you're dealing with here on this book, did you think that people would pick up on all of those things when they started to write about and review your book? Like, did you set out to write about all these different things? Or was it more like that's what came out. And then people saw it in a way that was maybe different to how you saw it.
Noué Kirwan
In some respects, I feel like the the racial aspect of it is just the way it is for me and for the other women in my life with people, women of color in my life, that's just the way it is and that it kind of resonated so loudly when I just meant, in some respects for it to just be like kind of the status quo of her life because it's the status quo of a lot of our lives. I wanted the character Mikaela to be identifiably black in the ways in which a black woman would see herself or a woman of color would see herself while I'm still telling a very universal story about love and second chances. And that sort of thing, I definitely didn't want you to feel like you could pick Makayla up and take her out and put someone else in there. And it would be the exact same story. Now, women do have in that respect, women of all stripes have very similar professional issues in terms of what the expectation is how they have to perform, or overperform and that sort of thing, but I always feel like black people and people of color in general have that extra added thing where they represent black people or Latin X people or Asian people in every room that they come into, you know, every space it's so if they have a high that's yea black people, and if they have a low it's like, oh, well what did you expect? And so I really wanted to say that and make sure that that was seen so that to your question, I didn't expect that it would resonate so highly with so many people like I didn't see that foresee that coming through. So clearly in terms of the the family dynamics, you know, they say sometimes that like hurt people hurt people. And so I wanted to kind of play with that a little bit. I think that part I knew people who are gonna see and they would recognize possibly themselves or possibly the someone than they knew in that but the racial aspect was kind of in the workplace was was a surprise.
Lainey Cameron
That makes perfect sense to me. It's like the context of the world she's living in. That's part of what's the joy of fiction Is is that you get to share that context with people who didn't live it right. So me, woman, I get to read that book and I'm like, Oh, I never lived that life. And I'm not going to live that life. But that context makes it so much more interesting as a journey, but also as a learning experience when you read a novel that has a different background to yourself.
Noué Kirwan
Yeah, I liked that a lot. Because it feels like the spoonful of sugar that helps the medicine go down. You know, it's like it, you get this really great story. But then you learn something and you almost didn't even realize that you learn something and you're like, Oh, at the end of that, like I have greater empathy. Because I was able to put myself in this position in this this person's story. That is not my story. And that normally I would not, wouldn't identify with.
Lainey Cameron
To me, that's one of the great joys of reading. It's probably the number one reason I read is is being able to experience others life's different, right, like fictional people. But you know, everybody's coming from real life experience somewhere, right?
Noué Kirwan
Yeah. There's a nugget of truth in all of it. Yeah.
Lainey Cameron
So did it change a lot as you were editing it? This is your debut novel, right? So like, what might readers be interested to know is different from maybe some of the original versions?
Unknown Speaker
Well, it evolved, I would say as opposed to like, changed, exactly. It matured. It started as a story about Mikaela, the main character as a young woman, it kind of evolved to where it was like 50% Her as at a young woman, and then 50% her as an adult. And then slowly, it changed until it was like 60 or 70% her as an adult, and you know, 30% her as a young woman. So that kind of changed. And as a result, actually, almost every instance that they reference, the characters reference in the past actually has a scene that I wrote for it in the past that in a lot of instances got cut out. And so they only talk about it, and you don't actually see it there. There are a lot that you do see, but there are a lot that you don't see. And they exist, like I have them, the reams and 1000s of words.
Lainey Cameron
So how much does a really avid reader have to bribe you to get one of those scenes that were never released?
Noué Kirwan
I think it would have to be a letter writing campaign to get those, you know, so some of them are really rough.
Lainey Cameron
Let me ask you about like your editing process. What does that look like?
Noué Kirwan
Generally speaking, I'm a person who needs to constantly edit, and I'm constantly revising, even as I'm writing. So what ends up happening is, I read up to where I am, and then continue and as I'm reading, I'm correcting things. So draft, one morphs into draft two, which morphs into they're not solid drafts. It's not like I have one draft and then I work on the next draft. It's always like draft 1.2, draft 1.3 draft 1.4 And then we get up to draft two and then that that's kind of how it flows.
Noué Kirwan
By the time I was ready to submit, I couldn't even count. I didn't have a really great idea of what draft I was on just because it's so constantly in flux, I call it tinkering. And my friends are always like, are you tinkering right now? And I'm like, Yeah, I can't help it. I'm always tinkering.
Lainey Cameron
How hard was it? The moment that you gave across the final final copy? Were you like hanging on to it for dear life, not wanting to let it go.
Noué Kirwan
I sent it off. But up until literally, I sent I hit enter. I was still making changes. And then every time that my editor said, like, we're going into the next phase, I'd be like, Okay, wait, I have a couple more changes until she finally had to be like, This is the sign off copy ebook version, just because booking already gone to print. So
Lainey Cameron
I love that I can totally relate to the writer. Yes. Looks like no, I can still make it better. I'm interested in your advice for other writers, you've got a successful debut here. Many people are on the path to work out how to get there. What do you advise other people who want to who want to write who want to get a beautiful novel like this into the world?
Noué Kirwan
I'm still in the getting advice from people phase of the process. But I think the first thing I would say is definitely it's not too late. I mean, I think you have to keep saying that to people, because I can't tell you how many people I've met, who are like, Oh, I used to write or I write, but you know, I'm doing this other thing now. And you know, I don't want to, you know, I can't stop to write or I can't take that time, or it's just too late. And I'm like, it's not too late. It's never too late. To start it. It doesn't matter how long it takes. Because when it's done, it's done. And it's ready. So it even if you're you can only dedicate an hour to it every other night or a couple nights for as many years as it takes. Still try.
Lainey Cameron
I like that it's never too late. Yeah. I mean, we've had some writers on the podcast here who are in their 70s. I don't think we've met anyone in their 80s yet, maybe that needs to be a new goal. People think you know, well, if I'm 75 and I haven't started, it's too late. It's like, nope, we've had some very successful writers on the podcast, who published their first book in their late 70s. So yeah, why not?
Noué Kirwan
Yeah, exactly. As long as you can continue to imagine things and write them down. You still can do it.
Lainey Cameron
I'm interested in reading and books. Is there anything you can recommend, sir, that you read recently that was just beautiful and you enjoyed
Noué Kirwan
it? I just recently got into audiobooks. And the last thing that I've read I am a very late adopter of almost everything. That is something about me I'm I'm listening to and enjoying Beyonce albums from 10 years ago only now. But I just listened to Daisy Jones and The Six by Taylor Jenkins Reid. It is performed by a full cast. It was wonderful. It was everything that everyone had been saying it was. I went into it not exactly skeptical, but I just didn't expect to love it. Like, I thought it was going to be a good read. because I've read I've read other things by Taylor Jenkins read and enjoyed them. But particularly the audio book with that full cast. It's just it was such an enjoyable read. Other things that I've read recently that I really liked. And again, later adopter - Circe by Madeline Miller. Loved it. Five years later. I did read something new a few months ago, I've read Matrix by Lauren Groff. And that was really good. And what as I was reading, it was just so beautiful. I was awed by it. And I was just like the story is about a 13th century nun. I just was like, Where would a woman in 2022? Or when she wrote it? Maybe 2020 have come up with this idea for this 13th century nun who's running this convent. It was just an amazing book.
Lainey Cameron
Yeah, talk about like living someone else's life. Right. Yeah. Wow. Before we wrap up and talk about where where folks can connect with you. Is there anything I missed or anything? I didn't ask that you wanted to be sure to talk about?
Noué Kirwan
I am working on my second book. Hopefully we'll see it next year. Fingers crossed. But otherwise, no, I can't think of anything. This has been really fun.
Lainey Cameron
Cool. And where can folks find you? Is there one particular place that you prefer to connect or hang out online?
Noué Kirwan
I do tend to spend a lot of time on Instagram. I also am on Twitter, but I'm a little quieter on Twitter. I'm dead tend to just be reblogging we posting things on Twitter or retweeting. See you I also have a website www.nouekirwan.com . So you can just see like little things I have a playlist on their Spotify playlist about of things that put me in the mind of the book. That's a little fun. I think that's it and a TikTok that there's absolutely nothing on.
Lainey Cameron
I think a lot of authors have those these days, we're trying to work out like what to put on Tiktok. Yeah, we're like we're there in case the reader wants to talk to us. But we're like, we don't know what we're doing here yet. With a lot of TikToks that are experimental on my own. I will put on the episode page on www.bestofwomensfiction.com The links to all of your social media and the books that you recommended so folks can easily find that. It’s been an absolute pleasure to have you join us on the podcast. Thank you.
Noué Kirwan
Thank you