Episode 71: Bestselling author, Joy Jordan-Lake
Joy Jordan-Lake is the bestselling author of eight books, several historical fiction. In our interview she shares the inspiration and background behind her latest novel, Under A Gilded Moon.
Inspired by the story of the building of the Biltmore estate, the novel is told from the point of view of Kerry MacGregor, from a poor family, who is torn between two worlds after returning the Appalachian mountains.
We chat about what goes into researching a historical fiction novel, and how to be brave and humble at the same time.
Books Mentioned:
Under A Guilded Moon by Joy Jordan-Lake
Louise Penny’s mystery novels, set in Quebec
Barbara O’Neal bestselling women’s fiction novels, with writing that emphasizes a sense of place.
Connect with the author:
Transcript:
** Transcript created using AI (so please forgive typos!)
Lainey 0:00
Hi, this is Lainey Cameron, I am here with joy Jordan lake and I'm hoping her dog because he's gonna come on and off screen, I suspect. What's he called?
Joy 0:10
This is Teddy, the rescue pup.
Lainey 0:13
Oh, he's adorable. I'm sorry, for those of you who are listening on audio, you'll have to go to the website to see the picture of Teddy who is adorable. He's big, and he's fluffy. He's small and fluffy. So I'm excited we're going to talk about Under A Gilded Moon. And this book is historical fiction. And it has done so well. I mean, I invited you on because so many people have talked to me about this book and, and hearing words like, here's what people said to me, it is among the best written historical fiction out there. And that was one of the reasons I wanted to have you on.
Joy 0:47
Well, you just made my day. So thank you.
Lainey 0:50
So let's start maybe by telling people a little bit about the book, set them in the time period and tell them what it's about.
Joy 0:57
It's set in 1895, and 96, which was the year that the Biltmore Estate opened. And it's the, to this day, it's the largest private residence in the United States. It was built by George Vanderbilt during the gilded era, the Gilded Age. So that's the setting lots of things going on. Historically, that's always part of the fun of writing historical fiction, you kind of dive back into things you sort of barely learned in middle school. And then if you're me, you completely forgot. So that's part of the fun. So if you like the Gilded Age, or you love gorgeous estates, looks, the house looks like it belongs, you know, in Europe somewhere, and it's plopped down in the middle of the North Carolina mountains. So
Lainey 1:39
And, and I love that you give us kind of an aperture into the story, not from the view of like the Biltmore house, but from the view of your main character, who's actually not from a rich background, right. And she's coming back to the APL if I never get the Appalachians or affiliations for the red for the first time, right, leaving college and coming back to her family. So I thought that was really clever, because by giving us kind of like an intro through a really relatable character, you get to see all the opulence through her perspective.
Joy 2:06
Right. Well, thanks for Thanks for liking that approach. I actually intended to write it more from the perspective of sort of the Gilded Age characters more the sort of a Downton Abbey only set at the Biltmore Estate in the mountains. But I kept coming back to this character, Carrie, who, as you said, is more from the Appalachian background, she's from very, very poor, which these folks were living in the Appalachian Mountains in North Carolina in that era, when George Vanderbilt built this house. It was you know, totally subsistence farming and if you've ever tried to farm in that, or even try to just dig a hole in those mountains, I used to spend a lot of summers there you know, it's it's rock and it's, it's It was tough farming for those folks. And so she comes from this very, very difficult background, but she's had a chance to go off to college in New York, and she's coming back because her father's dying so she's sort of torn between two worlds because she's now highly educated she she's sort of fits in that world and sort of doesn't and very, very proud of her heritage. So she's very torn between the two worlds.
Lainey 3:15
And she's a very relatable character I wonder if that's why this because that's part of why this book has such fabulous reviews right? I mean, you've got 1000s and 1000s 12,000 reviews out there and people love this book, like really they really enjoy it. So um, let's take a quick peek at one blurb just to give folks for those who are not yet reading this which they should be under a gilded boom This is a beautiful blurb from Emily Carpenter. And she says I was swept away by this dazzling my masterfully written tale of the clash of classes and cultures around the Biltmore in North Carolina. Joy Jordan Lake brings the past alive with impeccable details raw emotion, and parallels to our present world a triumph. Wow.
Joy 3:59
Emily Carpenter is great by the way, everyone should be reading her.
Lainey 4:03
Exactly, exactly. So talk to me about the inspiration you just shared a little bit but like you've been in the in that area and so where did the whole idea come from like what what was the initial spark that got you going?
Joy 4:15
You know, there were a lot of different sparks. I grew up in the mountains of East Tennessee I was born in Washington DC but really did my growing up in the mountains of East Tennessee, but I spent a lot of summers in the mountains of North Carolina, mountains just others dateline. But on that side, don't tell Tennesseans but that the mountains get a little more grand in North Carolina, that a lot of time to summer camps and just I just have this long standing love affair with those mountains. They really just speak to my soul as they do for a lot of and I'll try to make a long story very short, but one summer I was working for a camp Rockman I was the sailing instructor on Lake Eden, if you can imagine it brought on for boys world's best job for college student and one day very very hungry getting off work I was just covered in fish fertilizer and I was just disgusting mess wet hair cut off jeans. And so my buddies came running by saying we're going to Dinis house for dinner. Dini was the girlfriend of the son of the guy who owned our camp and I was like, okay, great free pizza. That's that's marvelous. Get off, you know, for a few hours and I'm just follow these guys on my little car and wound all around, and we got to the Biltmore Estate, and I thought, Oh, well, that's the end of my journey, because I look like heck yeah, I didn't even have my idea. And, and the guy at the big gate of the Biltmore Estate waves is through, like, we're special people, you know, and like, Whoa, he ends and I'm thinking what on earth, we wind all around all these back roads and pull up finally to this cute little house with go inside and Dini greets us warmly I just met her once before very down to earth and very warm and and I'm asking all kinds of awkward questions just not realizing then finally, someone that just me and I'm looking back at this gorgeous plate glass window looking out onto these beautiful fields. And the only thing you can see besides these gorgeous fields is the Biltmore house and I thought okay, Deniz my age and all I own is this beat net car and my apartment back at college you know like sits underground like I'm looking up at people's undercarriage of their cars you know and you like this is interesting because I was really feeling like dealing and I were you know, pretty much on the same page and I'm buddy no just mean because Julie you're the only person who doesn't know Dini is going to inherit you know, brother are going to inherit the Biltmore Estate one day this is this was news to me I had really thought you know, we're kind of living the life of a 21 year olds and anyway, delightful person very down to earth. And have fun moments where I thought, oh, wow, and it hit me that George Vanderbilt with all his millions back in the 1890s had the same love affair with those mountains that I did only he had all the money in the world, he could have built this house anywhere he wanted were on the planet, and he chose those mountains. So that was just one of those moments where I thought oh, you know, anyway, and George Vanderbilt himself was this fascinating historical character he's more a secondary character but he's, he of himself is just fascinating. So I loved getting to do the research on him I kind of felt like we were buddies, you know?
Lainey 7:43
Well, what does that research and the process look like for reading a book like this I was just saying before we started that I'm glad I write contemporary fiction because even just the research involved in that like you can go down a rabbit hole and end up like researching things you didn't really need to know by the time you remove the chapter, you know, three revisions later, how do you deal with that whole like revising and research to do all the research upfront Do you do it as you go like how do you do that with such a detailed novel that has all these elements of history in it?
Unknown Speaker 8:11
You know, that is a great question. You're so right, any of us can totally go down rabbit holes and and any of us to with contemporary too, if you visit a place and there again you can get distracted just you know visiting something that later you don't even need I'm kind of learning as I go to that it's sort of a dance, do all your research up front, at least for me, you're right some of that stuff is gonna get cut out you've wasted a lot of time and energy and maybe photocopying who knows what but I'm kind of learning to do enough research to kind of to find the story find the interesting characters find the history that maybe nobody really tell the obscure interesting stuff and and then you do enough enough to get going and then you go back and research some more once you because you're writing always takes these turns you know or you stumble it or you've never I mean historical character you've never heard off before that happened with this but several times and or sometimes you have to go looking for you know, for another piece you realize, wait, I you know, I really don't know anything about this.
Lainey 9:20
I'm fascinated, like, what's your most common notes that you have to come back to like, for me, a lot of it is body language. And I'll be like, fixed body language later. But like is yours like, work out? Whether that even existed to like, what kind of notes do you write to yourself as you're editing?
Unknown Speaker 9:34
Well, that sort of thing. And also my husband years ago with my very first novel, said, and he's an Italian I should tell you so he thinks about food constantly. You know, that's where his brain that's his default mode. And then he forced up occasionally to think about something non food related. And I apparently have the reverse brain because he said, you know, you realize no one ever eats in your novels, right? actually thought Okay, that's a real problem because some people, you know, they want to, they want to read about food, or how does it taste? Or how does it smell or so I've tried to be more conscious that sometimes I will write myself notes, you know, what were they eating. And so with the vanderbilts, in, in the Biltmore Estate with George and to the kind of friends he was inviting, and his family, you know, these were like seven course dinners. So that was fascinating to go back and find some old actual menus from the Biltmore Estate and and then just, you know, from that era, Americans at that level, economically, the seven course meals, what would they typically eat? And that Eric said, that was fascinating. And then conversely, what were people eating in the 1890s? In the North Carolina mountains, the farmers who were barely getting by?
Lainey 10:47
You know, I was, I was actually appreciating that it's interesting, you mentioned that mention it, there's a scene early on when they're on the train, and they're eating some kind of sandwich with pork and apple in it. And I was like, looking that one up, because I was fascinated. I was like, that kind of sounds like something you would have in the UK, I grew up in the UK and I was like, fascinated the concept that you would put apple in with this and some kind of bread from I was interesting to me. So I liked that you put the foot in there.
Unknown Speaker 11:17
That's, that's one of those things, you know, as you know, you kind of get to push yourself on as you go. But that was right, a lot of apples and, you know, just anything you could grow or anything that that was right there in the mountains.
Lainey 11:31
So I'm interested in advice you might have for other writers, and even for other historical fiction writers. I mean, like I said, this book is so well reviewed, it's been called masterful, like, what do you advise people who want to write either fiction or historical fiction, and maybe they're kind of where you were quite a few years ago? And they're starting out, like, like, what advice do you give?
Unknown Speaker 11:51
I would say, two things that sound like they could be opposites. But you have to be brave enough to give it a try. You know, there's so many we all meet so many people, I'm sure you do too. Lainey who say I've always wanted to write Oh, yes. And, and really, the difference between doing it or not doing it is just making the time, you know, and lots of other things, discipline and reading a lot of other people and all but mainly, just get started, you know, make the time. So there's that element of just being brave enough to do it. And face that it's scary, because people can tell you, you're terrible, or you know, you should be ashamed to be breathing.
Lainey 12:32
And you probably are terrible, right? Like, I was terrible. Like every first draft is terrible, right? And so getting past that fear factor of Haha, it's gonna be terrible. And it's not about you, everybody's first dress are terrible.
Joy 12:45
So let go of it and go, you know, just be free, as a friend of mine likes to say, you know, just just be brave, and get out there and try and then, but then Converse to that. Be humble, you know, like, be brave, but be humble. Because I've had, I used to teach a lot of creative writing. And I've had so many students who are so unbelievably gifted, and either they would get so beaten down by rejection letters from publishers, or agents or whatever. Or they would have this little bit inflated sense of, no, I'm better than that, like you should recognize my and they really wouldn't be very gifted. It's just that everybody gets rejected everybody, you know, except maybe maybe Vinci, I think, got accepted the first try. But But other than that, you know, most of us have stacks of rejection letters, and so you can listen, but when someone's kind enough to take a moment and say, I'm rejecting you, because, you know, we're in a reader in a reader or writer group, if someone says, I love this, but you know, listen really well to those people, if you think they have your best interest, and they're not just trying to take you down. And 99% of those people are going to be on your side, is they have some critique, even if it's hard to hear, you know, be humble enough to hear it because they're taking their time to try to help you out. And I think some writers get caught there. And, you know, pushback, or they've Yeah,
Lainey 14:11
I got given some great advice. I was at a Writers Workshop. And I think I asked the question of, well, how do you balance that, right? You have to have confidence in what you're doing in order to stick with it. And also to find your voice and stick with the pieces that are your voice that you believe in. But you also need to be able to take feedback, and you can't be so overconfident that you can't listen. And I was given great advice that said, Don't try and walk a line being both at once try and alternate between the two. And I thought that was really interesting insight. Because Yeah, it's hard to be both right. You can't simultaneously say, I know what I'm doing and this deserves to be in the world, but it's probably not as good as it should be. And I'm going to listen to all your feedback.
Joy 14:48
It's great it's crap. Yeah.
Lainey 14:51
So I love that advice. They said just step between one on the other and I wish I could remember who it was who said that I will credit them later if I can remember but yeah, I thought that was interesting. advice to step back and forth between those modes. And that way you get the best of both, and you can keep moving forward.
Joy 15:04
That's nicely said, I like that.
Lainey 15:06
So what about books that you admire? Or that you've enjoyed reading? I have two questions for you here. First is anything you recommend or have read recently? And second is, I'm actually interested in the historical fiction world, which is not what I write, how do you balance like what you read while you're writing? And do you have to limit yourself in any way as you're actually writing or drafting?
Joy 15:26
Oh, well, okay, I'll start with that one and work backwards. As far as limiting myself, I love to read as, as I guess all writers do, right? And so I do have to be careful because sometimes I'll get so pulled into a book, you know, what I really wanted to escape reading and not get to my own writing That's dangerous. Or, if it's so good, when I'm reading, there's that danger of, well, crap, I'll just quit. Because, you know, this is not as good as Kristin Hannah's the nightingale, so I'm just, I'm just throwing in the towel or you know, that danger too, that you can really psych yourself out and I try to keep reading lots of different kinds of things. I love Louise Penny's mystery novels set up in rural Quebec and even when I'm not right writing a mystery I just love that sense of place and she writes a lot about food and smells and seasons and so I always find that entertaining and you just interviewed I think a few weeks or maybe months ago Barbara O'Neal and she always has such a an interesting sense of place for these different places in the world where her books are set she does she does so I'm always reading just huge stacks of things and have if I started mentioning friends who are writers I get myself in trouble but always inspired by them they just it's really fun to be able to read things by will like you mentioned Emily Carpenter or you know read things by you know and think this this is this that
Lainey 17:01
Does the time period matter to you like do you have to be careful not to read something in a different time period when you're writing one or it doesn't kind of you don't absorb it in that way.
Joy 17:10
If it's close in time it's almost more dangerous you know like World War One World War Two you know that can be like oops that be easy to slip in terms of technology or you know, sort of what's that kind of thing what's available. It can honestly any kind of reading can both really help in both potentially I just try to be aware if I'm so sucked into someone else's world sometimes I'll have to quit reading fiction for a while and just read or bring in biography until I finish whatever deadline I'm working on for my own book and then go back so sometimes talking about going back and forth sometimes I'll have to just quit reading fiction because it can be you never want to write too much like someone else. You just want to be inspired but you know if you get to second world you can find Oh goodness I've sound more like..
Lainey 18:06
I've heard writers say that that they pick up other writers voices which is interesting to me, but I think I suffer more from the danger of self comparison which is what you said which is you read like Barbara O'Neal, right and it's funny because in her interview she actually talks about this like don't compare yourself because that might not be your strength right so like her setting to your point her sense of place is amazing. And I have to be careful when I'm reading not to go like oh my goodness I will never write like Barbara O'Neal because I'm not supposed to it's not my style. It's okay.
Joy 18:35
Exactly maybe you know character maybe dialogue maybe something else is really where you're hitting it out of the park and Oh, right. Exactly. We're terrible about most of us about being up on one thing and and not giving ourselves credit where maybe we could other areas.
Lainey 18:54
So let's take a quick peek at where people can connect with you before I ask you My last question here. So you're at @joyjordanlake_books on Instagram, and www.joyjordanlake.com online, they can find all your other social medias there. And I always like to wrap up by asking, Is there anything you wanted to talk about that I haven't asked you that you'd like to be sure to mention today?
Unknown Speaker 19:16
Oh, nice. Well, I if for anybody who likes the Maine coast, the coast of Maine, especially small villages there or the Boston area, my next book comes out in a year. And it's set on the coast of Maine, kind of in a fictional town, but it's based on Kenny buck port, so I'll just throw that out there because I'm excited about that. It's been and I hope that's the beginning of a series.
Lainey 19:40
So is it a Is it a mystery or is it what kind of Yeah,
Joy 19:44
it's a mystery series, but it's similar to to what Louise Penny does, I hope um, without imitating her, but just admiring her. It's more it's who done it but it's also the why I'm always fascinated with the psychology around you know what what makes people do things what makes great love or commit murder or be better the rest of your life or you know so it's it's as much concerned with what makes us do what we do as it is just the Hoot
Lainey 20:14
Oh that sounds great I love those kind of like psychological get inside the head of love it love it just read one like that. And it was funny I put in my review if you love books where you get inside the main character's head, you'll adore this book, knowing that some people would say oh, I don't want to spend my time inside someone's head and I'm like, that's not the book for you. Yeah, well it has been a pleasure to speak with you joy. It was so much fun and congratulations. Like I said this book everybody loves it. I'm so glad I got to have you on because you really are among the best out there and women's fiction and in historical women's fiction, so thank you for spending time with me.
Joy 20:48
You're so kind Lainey thank you so much for having me on and please keep in touch.
Lainey 20:52
I will, bye!