Episode 73: Joan Gelfand, award-winning author of Extreme
Two-time Pushcart prize nominee and winner of the Women’s National Book Association’s Effie Lee Morris Prize, Joan Gelfand introduces us to her novel, Extreme.
Set in the pressure cooker environment of Silicon Valley startups, Extreme takes the reader inside the gamification of extreme sports.
Books Mentioned:
Extreme by Joan Gelfand
You Can Be A Winning Writer: The 4 C's System to Author Success: Craft, Commitment, Community & Confidence by Joan Gelfand
The Plot by Jean Hanff Korelitz
My Year Abroad by Chang-Rae Lee
Pachinko by Min Jin Lee
Connect with the author:
Transcript:
** Transcript created using AI (so please forgive the typos!)
Lainey 0:00
Hi, this is Lainey Cameron. I'm here with Joan Gelfand. And we're going to be talking about her novel extreme, which appealed to me as an ex Silicon Valley marketing exec because it's set in the world of startups and adventure sports. Thanks for joining me, Joan.
Joan Gelfand 0:17
Thanks for inviting me.
Lainey 0:20
So let's start by telling folks who might not be familiar with extreme a little bit about the book. Can you give us a little bit of an overview of what it's about?
Joan Gelfand 0:28
Extreme takes place in a startup that is building out an app for extreme sports athletes and enthusiasts. And the idea is to get players, whether they're surfers, or skiers or helos skiers or bass jumpers to video themselves, and put it up on this app, and then have people vote Okay, so that it started by these two really young skateboarders who's to start the company. And then they get bought, as you know, many how that goes. I mean, it really shows the trajectory of what it's like to be on the ground floor with this startup. And of course, then big monster television network wants to buy them. And then the fun really begins because of course, not everybody wants to do that, you know, stuff like that.
Lainey 1:29
And, you know, one thing I loved about this book is I thought you captured really well, the pressure cooker environment of being part of a startup, and you're there and you're doing hackathons on the weekend, and you're there 24/7 At times, and you're all getting so close, both physically, emotionally. And it leads to all kinds of relationships and fireworks. And I thought you captured that element really well.
Joan Gelfand 1:51
Thank you. Yeah, well, I myself had some exposure to Silicon Valley as a, I was a like you, I worked in the corporate real world for 20 years, I worked on the vendor side, I was worked with architects and planners to build out space. And of course, in the 90s, it was going insane with space being built, right. But when I met my husband, he was actually an engineer in the trenches. And so I got to get a different view.
Lainey 2:27
Where did the original spark of the idea come from?
Joan Gelfand 2:32
I knew I wanted to write about a startup because my prejudice or assumption when I got to know people in Silicon Valley, was that they were gearheads. And then when I did get to know, people, I realized that, no, they were kind of autodidact and Renaissance people and into music and wine and travel and all like yourself being a nomad. You know, much more fascinating intellectually. And I wanted to really kind of try to show that side a little bit, especially with my character, Doug, who's also a, he's an engineer, but a struggling musician. So I wanted to show that and so that I think was really the spark. But then, the extreme sports aspect, we actually worked with a company in New York called Play Maddix. That gave us the idea for how the app would work. And the guy who founded Plyometrics, is a game designer and also a skateboarder. So he, he helped me with all that,
Lainey 3:43
Oh, that's great. It really rang true, like the social media aspect of putting challenges out there. And some of that, like, definitely rang true to me as both X Silicon Valley and no an Instagram or an A books to grammar, and all of that kind of came together into a very credible scenario for me. So how did this book change over time? Like, was this kind of like went through many iterations and change very much? Or was it more like the core storyline stayed the same and you refined the language I, I note that you're also a poet, and people give you beautiful credit for the poetic land language and some of this book. So like, talk to us about how it changed from the beginning to the end of writing it.
Joan Gelfand 4:24
The book had about nine lives. So the first iteration, it was about a company doing voice recognition. And I sent the book around, and it was Lainey. It was right at the time that we had the first bust around 2000s, early 2000s. And New York was like Silicon Valley, right? Like, we don't want to talk about Silicon Valley wants to hear about Silicon Valley, right? They're like they're like yesterday. So I actually put To book away for a while, and then I'm writing poetry and publishing my books and all that. And then, you know, Facebook, Google, things start to like percolate. And I said, I'm taking this book out of the drawer, because of course, I love my characters. So I'm like, if I still love the book, I'm gonna have to rewrite it because it's fast forward. Bunch of years. I took it out, I loved it. And so we just ideated and changed the whole tack and made it into an extreme sports company and all that. Yeah. So it changed a lot. I have a lot more sex in it.
Lainey 5:42
I thought it had a lot of sex. And I thought it was pretty sexy.
Joan Gelfand 5:46
Because of the me to movement, you know, I didn't want sex between like, a day. Anyway, it was between the CEO and one of the project managers. And I'm like, no, no, no, no, no, that that's not going to work anymore.
Lainey 6:01
Straight. Well, I thought your your main character was really interesting in that she's kind of haunted by her past, she almost thinks about herself, as I don't know if I would use the phrase white trash, but she almost thinks of herself as like, not worthy of being in the room with the other people that she's in the room with. And she's a project manager playing a very important role. And I know having written myself about imposter syndrome and my own book, and I'll tell you that when I was querying my novel, someone actually told me that it was really funny. It was an agent in their 20s. In New York, this book is not credible, because no successful woman would have imposter syndrome after they've got so far in their career. Right? And, you know, exploding head emoji, like, Oh, dear, you are not the agent for me. But like, I'm really interested by that, like that backstory, she's got a really interesting backstory, where she doesn't feel kind of worthy to be in the role or to be with the people she's with, like, where did that come from? And maybe talk to me a little bit more about that.
Joan Gelfand 6:56
You know, I think that this is something that to me, from a sociological standpoint, I find so fascinated, fascinating working in American business, because if you're smart, you know, you can go you and you know, smart, determined all of that. And you can cover up your background. But that doesn't mean that people aren't like, constantly trying to catch up with themselves. And I've met people like that. I've met people like that. And it's interesting. My daughter lives in Europe now. And you know, Europeans are much more like you are tracked from the time you are in high school, this is where you are going, right? Professional, this that here, people change careers, and we're not always tracked, so we're not trapped. So directly. So yeah, I have met. Right, right. Definitely.
Lainey 7:57
There's a lot more, to your point, a lot more career mobility. And even the idea that like you give two weeks notice to most Europeans, they find that just shocking, right? I can't I come from Scotland originally, and the concept that your employment is at will and that you can just walk in on a Friday morning and be told no, it's fine. Turn around and go back out the door. We're done with you. is shocking, right? And you're up. You're on a contract, you've generally got several months notice.
Joan Gelfand 8:20
Yeah. Yeah, very different, very different.
Lainey 8:23
So let's take a quick peek at a review because this book has some wonderful reviews. And this is just one. This is from Katie Hafner, who wrote "Wizards Stay Up Late: The Origins of the Internet," a New York Times and Wall Street Journal columnist. And this is the one actually one of many that comment on your poet’s sensibility. And I agree there's some beautiful moments of language and silly similes and metaphors in this book. And she talks about a novelist instinct for plot and also poets sensibility, and how you produce the whip smart page turner of a book, complete with startup Fever, fever, romantic intrigue, and a cast of sympathetic and not so sympathetic characters, read extreme, and you'll have a better sense of what really goes on in Silicon Valley, far better than TV shows like Silicon Valley could ever provide. what a what a great endorsement was awesome. And, you know, it's funny, she mentions to TV shows like, how do you feel when you watch shows like Silicon Valley? Do you think they're accurate, not accurate, overdone, like, what's your impression of those?
Joan Gelfand 9:28
Well, you know, fiction is fiction. So, I mean, you know, a show like Silicon Valley just uses the background to kind of do these antics and, you know, humor. You know, I love media and films and so I'm huge and I don't tend to be overly critical. I'm like, you know, not everything has to be so true.
Lainey 9:55
Right? Yeah, no, Silicon Valley the first time the TV show The first time my husband and I watched it The first season we were just out of San Francisco. And we both sat there with our jaws on the floor going, Oh, my goodness, we know that guy. Because some of the characters are actually based on real people that we knew. And in particular, the venture capitalists were like, oh my god, we actually know who that's based off of, and we've been in a room with them. And so it was kind of interesting that they kind of veered pretty close to some of the reality. So let's talk writing advice. You have had some beautiful reviews, you do many types of writing, I saw from your bio, that you do many different types of writing. What do you advise people who like to be able to write a book like this? Like, where do they start? What do you most often advise?
Joan Gelfand 10:39
You know, I actually have a book that I wrote for writers called you can be a winning writer. And it's published by mango press. So if people are interested in more than one writing tip, they can read that book.
Lainey 10:54
Perfect. I'll make sure I put that in the show notes on the website as well.
Joan Gelfand 10:57
Great. It was a it was a number one bestseller on Amazon. It was awesome. Anyway, in that book, I talk a lot about persistence. But the subtitle of that book is the four C's of successful authors. So it's craft, commitment, community and confidence. And one of the things that I learned the hard way that I always recommend to writers start to build your community and your fan base as you're writing. Don't wait until that book is finished. Because the truth is right now, no agent or publisher will take you seriously, unless you have a minimum of about 5000 followers on your social media. People don't like to hear that. You're you've been successful, you have your 7000 on Instagram, I'm sure you've got a great platform. But writers have to pay attention to that. And even though they're like, oh, I don't like social media, I don't do social media. It's like, okay, that's fine. But most publishers will ask you for your numbers. Yeah,
Lainey 12:02
that's interesting, like I'm part of the 2020 debuts class last year. And I would say most of the 2020 debuts didn't have that much of a following. But and these are people who were picked up by larger publishers for the most part. But there is definitely an expectation from the publisher that you're going to be out there interacting with readers interacting with other writers that you're going to have a platform. So even if it's not yet as big, I think the expectation I watched to remember who it was ranting on YouTube, just a few months back about all of these expectations of writers, right, that we have to be personalities. No. And I think that's definitely true that there is an expectation that you're out there as a personality, that it's very hard to be a writer who doesn't have a website, although I did just find two writers in the last week who only have websites with their publisher, and who do not have their own presence or websites and who are not writing under a pen name, which I thought was interesting. So I guess every role has its exceptions,
Joan Gelfand 12:57
right? I mean, I guess Yeah, right, exactly. This is, this is what I hear from publishers and agents that they really want you to have a presence. Yeah, yeah.
Lainey 13:09
Yeah, definitely. There's that expectation. And I think it's hard on writers because most writers I think are introverts. So let's talk reading. What do you like to read? Do you have anything good to recommend?
Joan Gelfand 13:22
I have a few favorite writers at the moment. I loved that book that came out recently called The Plot, because it's like a story within a story. And that woman has been writing. I'm blanking on her name, but she's been writing for quite some time. And I think this is kind of her breakout book. It's doing really well with it. Then I also love the author, Chang-Rae Lee, who's been around for quite some time, but I just started reading him. And his new book. Oh, he was written up in the New York Times. So I got his new book was which was called My Year Abroad. And what I loved about that was that he studies class and culture and motivations. And he's a beautiful writer, beautiful. And another one was I read Pachinko, which was a New York Times bestseller. And what I loved about that was the historical fiction aspect of the conflict between Japan and Korea, back in the early part of the century, 20th century, and I really like historical fiction. I like learning when I'm reading but, but I love to read for the language and for the pleasure, try not to read too much dark sufficiently now. Things that can relate
Lainey 14:46
to that. For the longest time, I didn't read very many romance books. And then at the beginning of the pandemic, when it got really dark, I wanted that happy ending. I'm like, give me all the guaranteed cliche trophy happy endings in the world. I want to know the world will end Well, the conversation I was having with someone is like, Why beat yourself up over that? Like, who cares? It's the same. I feel the same way about that is when people say, well, audio books aren't really reading. And I'm like, why would you even go there? Like reading is reading? It's storytelling is storytelling. Why? Why be judgmental about what anyone reads?
Joan Gelfand 15:18
Well, you know, I think for some people, one of the pleasures of reading is that as they have that book, whether it's on their Kindle, or in hardcopy, if they see a sentence or a passage that they don't comprehend, they can so easily go back, or if it's a sentence, they love that they want to read, again, audio things tend to go a little faster, obviously. But I agree.
Lainey 15:42
So before we tell people how they can connect with you, anything I haven't asked you that you wanted to be sure to talk about today.
Joan Gelfand 15:50
I love that question. And all I want to say is to the writers listening, persist and read, because my writing teachers always told me read read read. And the reason is, is because you start to absorb the rhythm of love language and what works in a piece of fiction. I think that's really important. And of course, increasing your vocabulary as you're reading. That's one thing I do vote for the Kindle on is because if I don't understand a word, I can click on it and get it get its meaning Right, right, the dictionary is built right in. So I love that. And I was raised by a mother that was like, use the dictionary look up your words. So you know. Yeah, it's really important for writers to have control and find the right words for the right nuanced feelings, you know, and that only comes through a strong vocabulary. So persist and read and look up your words
Lainey 16:54
through words. And I'm going to just pop up a slide here on screen for her folks can connect with you. So you're at Joan.Gelfand on Instagram. www.JoanGelfand.com is your website and folks can find I'm sure links to your your writers but there as well and I'll put it in the show notes, like I said, as well and I'm off to go buy it for myself. I didn't realize you had a writer's book. I'm off to go buy your craft book. Thank you for sharing that.
Joan Gelfand 17:22
Thank you. Thank you so much for having me. It was really fun.