Episode 114: Madeline Martin, New York Times and International Bestselling author of The Librarian Spy
Madeline Martin talks about her latest historical novel, THE LIBRARIAN SPY, based on the true story of American librarians spying for the American government with little to no training during World War II. We meet Ava, an American librarian at the Library of Congress who travels to Lisbon to gather intelligence and ends up communicating through coded messages with Elaine, A french girl working for the resistance at a printing press.
Madeline shares great advice for writers, the best books she’s read lately, and we learn about how she traveled during the pandemic to research for the book.
Find book club questions, food ideas, and Madeline’s recipe for delicious Pasteis de Nata at Book Club Bites!
Books Mentioned:
The Librarian Spy by Madeline Martin (Bookshop.org / Amazon.com )
Mad Honey by Jodi Picoult (Bookshop.org / Amazon.com )
Daughters of Victory by Gabriella Saab (Bookshop.org / Amazon.com )
Fifth Avenue Glamour Girl By Renee Rosen (Bookshop.org / Amazon.com )
Connect with the author:
Transcript:
** Transcript created using AI (so please forgive the typos!) **
Ashley Hasty 0:00
Madeline. Thank you so much for joining me. I'd been very eager for this interview. You're my last author interview for this season at the best of women's fiction podcast, but your book, the library and spy, a national bestseller came out back in July. So I've had a long time to anticipate this chat with you.
Madeline Martin 0:20
Oh, thank you very much. Thank you for having me here today, too. I really appreciate it.
Ashley Hasty 0:25
I don't want to waste any time in case there are listeners out there who haven't yet read your book. Let's start if you would, by telling our listeners what the librarian spy is about.
Madeline Martin 0:37
Basically, we'll certainly my inspiration for it is the American librarians that were sent over to neutral countries to gather intelligence through, like foreign publications, clandestine presses, magazines, pamphlets, whatever they could get their hands on. So we have sort of a our intrepid spy that's gone over and doesn't really know what she's doing. And she's sort of read all these other consummate spies, and Lisbon, sir, and Lille, France, we have a woman who's with the French Resistance working with those presses, and she actually makes those. That's sort of how the story develops.
Ashley Hasty 1:10
This is your second historical fiction novel. But you've also written eight historical romance series and three standalone novels totaling over 30 books. Honestly, I lost count when I was counting all of your book covers on your website. Yeah. Makes you the most prolific writer, I've had the opportunity to interview on this podcast. Oh, thank you. What drew you to write in the historical fiction genre, especially after writing so long in the historical romance genre,
Madeline Martin 1:41
you know, when I was writing historical romance initially, like I started in the 1600s. And then I thought, Oh, the medieval times. It's so interesting. So I started to research the medieval life. And I spent about a year researching that. And then I wrote a whole bunch of medievals. And then I thought, oh, Regency is so interesting. So I started to research that. And then I decided, you know, I've always really been fascinated by World War Two. And so I decided 2020 was the year that I was going to write a world war two historical fiction novel. So that gave me a whole new genre to really kind of dip my feet into. And I realized in researching the last bookshop in London, which was my first historical fiction, I really just love the research aspect of writing historical fiction. And I think that's really what got me into writing, even with historical romance. And so now, like, it's wonderful, like this book that I'm working on right now, I basically have spent 10 months completely immersed in tons of research. And then you know, write the book after the fact they're really at the end of it, it's research. I love it. How do you approach a novel differently, depending on the genre, its historical fiction or historical romance? Yeah, or even like a clan war or something, if it's Scottish, like that. But as far as historical fiction goes, I feel like the historical research for that the history is almost like a character in and of itself, because you have to be so in depth with it, not just all of the events that really happened, which ultimately really helped develop your entire plot. So really, I feel like all of that really comes together. And to make that whole picture when it comes to historical fiction.
Ashley Hasty 3:20
Well, all of your books are historical, whether historical fiction or historical romance. So what is it that you like writing about history as opposed to contemporary novels? And would you ever write a contemporary novel? Hmm, that's
Madeline Martin 3:33
a really good question. You know, I actually I was thinking about possibly dipping my toes in contemporary because I will say that this was the very first time that I've taken like, 10 months off of writing, and probably the last, I guess, 15 years that I have been writing, so that I could just do only research and write. And when I started writing, again, I felt a little rusty, I actually thought, well, maybe I'll start working on a contemporary piece. So I might be like, running around bumping into walls for a while with that, you know, just to kind of keep my my, like, through creativity, creative juices kind of flowing. Oh, gosh, I forgot the first part of the question. So sorry.
Ashley Hasty 4:09
That's okay. What is it that you like writing about with history?
Madeline Martin 4:13
Oh, okay. Thank you. You know, it really just is it's like learning how people worked around things. It's learning how things got started. It's just like, like, for example, in the librarian, Spy, you know, with Elaine, she's using that pump press like that. The way that the printing presses, it's manually operated, you don't plug it in. It has this treadle that you press on the ground, and it has this sort of contraption that comes up and you have to swap out the paper to be pressed and then you take it off and you put a new one on, and then it comes up again. And, you know, that's just amazing to me that, you know, like, like the details of that kind of thing. And I actually got to see the printing press that the woman who inspired Elaine's character actually used during World War Two when I went to the resistance and Newseum in Lille
Ashley Hasty 5:01
Oh, that is a great segue to my next question. Bio mentions that you are a diehard history lover who will happily lose herself in research any day. And I also love the research process of writing, it is my favorite part of the writing process. And I could probably just research forever actually write a book, would you say research is your favorite stuff in the novel writing process?
Madeline Martin 5:26
Absolutely. 100% I think you know, and the funny thing is like, I'm kind of wrapping up my book right now. And I'm like, I wish that I had five years and like three books to fill this with, because I'm just enjoying the research aspect of it so much that I don't really want to stop. And I also have like about 15 spiral notebooks that are completely filled with handwritten notes from all of the research that I've done trying to pick and choose what things I'm putting in my book, you know, I see you nodding, it's so hard because you want to put everything in. But you know, that would be a really long book. And I think my editor would really red pen that one to death. But it's so tempting.
Ashley Hasty 6:07
Generally speaking, what does your research process look like, from the initial spark of inspiration to writing the novel.
Madeline Martin 6:15
Rhe initial spark, I have to be like, I have to be careful from getting too excited and going too crazy, because we do have to make sure that we get approval from the editors to go on forward. And I have had it before where I've gotten all excited, and I bought all these books. And they're like, well, that's not really something that we think is going to be as viable. And then like, you're like, heartbroken, and you have all these books. I mean, not that they're ever wasted, because you never know when you're going to bring them up for some other story again, but so, you know, once I get the Go ahead, like with this last one, I purchased, like dozens of books over the course, I mean, like this full shopping spree of books, because now I had carte blanche to just go crazy with it for a meal woman was coming here. And she actually instead of putting it in the mailbox, she actually brought boxes to my door. So you know, and then I get those and I start going to the bibliography and I start plucking out all of these other ones. And if you can't find it anywhere, you know, you go to a books, and you can find these old US books that are that are haven't been in print for, like 50 years. I mean, it's just you know, and then you just dig in. And it's so funny, too, because every time I get a new book at home, I'm like, Oh, my new book and my, like, Yeah, and you book. And then you know, I'm sitting there, like, as I'm looking through it, it's like, it's like a guy watching a football game like it the last quarter and it's like close neck and neck. I'm like, Oh my gosh, I've been waiting for this information. It's got this and this and they're like, Okay, mom, very excited about my research. And then so I just I pretty much you know, put it all in notebooks as I'm reading it. And then I do like to travel to the country that I'm writing about and just kind of connect those pieces. They have like this wonderful tour company called tours by locals. I've hired them for the last three countries that I have visited for research. And it's been just such an integral part of my research to get to find somebody who's also passionate about World War Two, and can really sort of pull back the veil on some things that maybe I wasn't entirely certain on, or maybe things that I didn't even know, which is always really exciting. But I've always found somebody who can do everything that I need them to, and they will build an entire tour schedule for me. So when I was actually in Warsaw a couple months ago, we had five different tours, and they lasted anywhere from eight to eight to 16 hours a day. It was amazing for
Ashley Hasty 8:33
For the librarian spy specifically, do you remember the first time you heard about these American librarians working as spies? How did you stumble across this story?
Madeline Martin 8:41
Yes, I was just, you know, history nerd here. I was just reading through history articles, how it goes. And I happened upon this one article that was talking about the librarian spies and how they were sent over to places like Lisbon, Portugal, and how they really didn't receive a lot of training when they were sent over there. And to be honest with you, that was kind of the part that stuck out to me is like, Hmm, that would be a really interesting story. Because as much as I would love to think that like I would be a really great spy I would not because my ankles pop and I can't really keep a good secret for too long. I am horrible at lying. I like Sir blushing and everything. So I probably would be sort of like like Ava's character, or she was, you know, sent over to Lisbon. And for people who may not be familiar with it, and Lisbon, Portugal. That's actually where Ian Fleming received his inspiration for his double Oh, seven book, Casino Royale. So you can imagine like these spies, these consummate spies that are so slick and so smooth, and they're doing everything that they should and then here's this like poor librarian coming in, you know, kind of like, thrown to the wolves so to speak, and I thought, Oh, that would be a really interesting story because I could I could see myself in her shoes.
Ashley Hasty 9:53
Definitely. I would have been the worst at that because I'm such an over planner and going in without much training and be like This is ridiculous,
Madeline Martin 10:01
you know? And then I'd be like, what? Plan B, I didn't even have a plan A this is driving me crazy.
Ashley Hasty 10:07
When researching the librarian spy, did you have any favorite resources?
Madeline Martin 10:13
Well, I mean, the travel was pretty. Yeah, I, um, so I went to Lyon, France for a week. And so the interesting thing is, I actually did this during the pandemic, France had opened up, but Portugal was still closed. And so initially, I was kind of wanting to do both trips at the same time, as would be more cost effective. But France opened up I thought, let me just go ahead and take advantage of this opportunity and go now. So I went to Lyon, France, I went with my my oldest daughter. And we spent about a week there. And then later on, when Portugal opened, France actually closed. So I'm very glad that I ended up not waiting. So then I went to Lisbon, Portugal with my husband. And then actually, like, about a couple of weeks later, I even went to Washington, DC, and I got to go to the Library of Congress and see that so I mean, it was it was just so incredible. I mean, I love travel anyways, but especially after having taken so many months to learn so much about the culture, the people, the history, just everything about about you know, where I'm traveling to, and going there and getting to see it all in real life and taste the food and smell the smells, and just experience all of it. I mean, it just,
Ashley Hasty 11:25
it really just was absolutely incredible, since you mentioned the notebooks of research that you have, and that you can never include at all I have to ask, is there anything that you wish you had included? Or had been able to include in the library and spy that you weren't able to or had to cut? For some reason?
Madeline Martin 11:42
Yes, and I actually do mention it in the author's note, but so this will be kind of a spoiler alert for people who read through authors and design. So there was a man named Sousa Mendes was in Bordeaux. And he was he was Portuguese diplomat, and they told him Do not sign any more visas whatsoever, no more French Jewish refugees can come into Portugal. And so he went against his con or he went with his conscience and against what what they what Salazar had told him to do. And he signed 1000s of visas. In fact, as he was signing them, he was doing them so quickly, that only his last name made it through a lot of them who just said Mendes, all of those refugees were able to flee France and go to the safety of Portugal, or well, the relative safety where they were able to hopefully go to somewhere else. So now they actually have something called the Sousa Mendes Foundation, where there are 10s of 1000s of people, these are all the descendants of the people who were saved by Susa Mendez. And when he died, he actually died in abject poverty for this decision that he made, because he never recovered from it politically. And the author's note because technically, this occurred like two years prior to my book taking place. And I tried so hard to find a really great place to fit it in. But there really was no like, smooth way to transition. And to you know, two years ago, this guy named Sousa Mendes, you know, and so, so that's why but he was such so worthy of being mentioned that I wanted to make sure I at least was able to do that my author's note, there's just tons and tons and tons of information that I wish that I could have included in there as well. But
Ashley Hasty 13:20
incredible I got chills thinking about all of the descendants that
Madeline Martin 13:24
yeah, he's incredible. Yeah. It's a beautiful story.
Ashley Hasty 13:30
You know, I always admire authors speaking about the books that are coming out right now. Because I know you've been researching and writing at least one other books since then. And probably your brain is there. And instead of here, it almost seems like you'd need a refresher to talk about the current that's coming out. Yes. Yeah. Especially if I ever do like if I if I do like a book club or something. And they talk about like the last bookshop in London, and I'm like, Oh, my gosh, that was like four countries ago. Yeah, yeah. So right now, I'm actually just finishing up the edits, like my personal edits, before I send my book before I turn my book into my editor.
What advice do you have for authors?
Madeline Martin 14:10
I think just never stop learning. There are so many different workshops that you can take out there, there are so many different instructors you can take out there. And there are so many tiered levels as well. You know, if you get to the point where like, I've taken all of the classes, start looking at like one on one that you can do, like for example, next year, I'm hoping to do something with Lisa Kron who who writes a book called Story genius that I absolutely love. So, you know, there's always ways that we can always continue to improve our writing improve our craft, so just don't ever stop learning.
Ashley Hasty 14:40
Everyone knows authors always have the best book recommendation. So I have to ask you what books you've enjoyed lately.
Madeline Martin 14:47
Well, right now I'm actually reading mad honey, the new book by Jody Pico, and it is so good. I'm actually listening to it. It's like when I'm taking my breaks from from doing my first night it's, it's really, really good. I also just finished Reading Gabriella sobs new book, Daughters of victory, which is really good. She wrote the last checkmate that was her debut last year. And it was so good also, and also Renee Rosen has one coming out soon called the Fifth Avenue glamour girl about the life of Estee Lauder. I didn't know anything about the life of Estee Lauder. I'm actually like, I wear makeup. But I'm not like a super huge like know everything about makeup kind of person. And the story was really just really fascinating. So those are some that I definitely have been enjoying
Ashley Hasty 15:29
Rene Rosen is a fellow Chicagoan and so I've been following her career for a while. About her next book, too.
Madeline Martin 15:36
Oh, it's so good. You're gonna love it. And that cover is gorgeous. And my word for finishing this book for like finishing writing this book is Hester, the new book that just came out. I can't wait. I actually it's like sitting on my dining room table just looking at me like you're almost done.
Ashley Hasty 15:55
Yeah, and yes, exactly. Of course, I want to share how people can find you. What is your website? And where do you like to hang out on social media?
Madeline Martin 16:04
So my website is Madeline martin.com. And I'm usually on Instagram or Facebook or Twitter. Really? I'm on pretty much all of them. You just type Natalie Martin author for Facebook, for Instagram and Twitter. It's at Madeline M. Martin, because somebody beat me to the punch with Madeline Martin. I write to you when that happens. And then it's like, do I make it like Madeline died? I mean, it's like yeah, so Madeline M. Martin.
Ashley Hasty 16:29
Before we wrap up? Is there anything else you'd like to talk about that we haven't covered yet?
Madeline Martin 16:33
I think I totally forgot to mention the book that I'm working on right now. So I'll just steal the title. It's called the keeper of hidden books. And it's actually about the librarians. I know I've got this thing going on with like books and librarians. I can't help myself. But it's about the librarians in Warsaw, Poland, who were fighting to make sure that they were saving books from being destroyed from Nazis and making sure that people still had books to read even though libraries were closed down. I've really been enjoying writing that one and I'm super excited for it and it comes out on August 1 next year.
Ashley Hasty 17:04
It'll be here before we know it. I know. Read of book theme or library theme or book lovers theme throughout your historical fiction novels. i Perfect historical fiction for book lovers.
Madeline Martin 17:18
I couldn't agree more. But I love books. So
Ashley Hasty 17:24
Readers love books too. So it seems perfect. Well, Madeline, it was such a pleasure chatting with you today. I cannot thank you enough for coming on this podcast and sharing a bit about your books and your background.
Madeline Martin 17:35
It was my pleasure. Ashley, thank you so much for having me.