Episode 83: Lisa Barr, award-winning author of Woman on Fire
Lisa Barr shares the inspiration for Woman on Fire, her latest novel about a young journalist who gets embroiled in a dangerous international art scandal centered around a Nazi looted masterpiece.
We chat about how Lisa found inspiration for a fabulous character like journalist Jules Roth (and it comes from Lisa’s background of 25 years in journalism and her own early idealism). Plus why her focus and expertise on stolen art, and how some of the story draws from real life headlines.
Also why Lisa has been able to successfully cross genres, what she’s learned from that, and great writing advice.
Books Mentioned:
Woman on Fire by Lisa Barr (Bookshop.org / Amazon.com )
The Unbreakables by Lisa Barr (Bookshop.org / Amazon.com )
Fugitive Colors by Lisa Barr (Bookshop.org / Amazon.com )
Other Resources:
Women’s Fiction Writer’s Association - has regular zoom writing dates for members.
Connect with the author:
Also Mentioned:
Women’s Fiction Writers Association (has Zoom writing dates)
Transcript:
** Transcript created using AI (so please forgive the typos!) **
Lainey 0:00
I adored this book. And I'm so excited to talk about it and talk about the difference between thriller and suspense and women's fiction. But also, I want to know how you write a page turner like this. First off, congratulations, it came out like just a few days ago.
Lisa Barr 0:12
Thank you so much. I really appreciate it. I'm so happy to be here with you.
Lainey 0:17
So for those who haven't had a chance to read it yet, which is a lot of people because it just released tell people more about women on fire.
Lisa Barr 0:24
Okay, so Woman On Fire was a blast to write I wrote it all during COVID. So I was working seven days a week, locked in my house. And obviously, it was a dark period, you know, especially in the beginning for all of us. So it really was, you know, a great place for me to write this book. And the novel is about a young journalist who gets embroiled in a major dangerous international art scandal centered around a Nazi looted masterpiece. And for me, it had everything I love to write, you know, art, history, suspense, risky journalistic pursuits, and of course, strong, fiery women. So that was just a really a, you know, a great feeling to be able to put myself dive into this book and write it.
Lainey 1:15
And I love that you always have these great strong woman characters. And this journalist character is fabulous. Like, she's not always like playing by the book, or she, she sometimes kind of crosses the lines a little bit compared to what her boss wants, right? He wants her to really kind of stay under control. And she's like, but I see an opportunity, and I'm gonna go for it. And it gets her in a little bit of trouble at some points in the book, how did you come up with her character? Like, like, does she just come to you fully formed? Do you say, Why do you find a character like that?
Lisa Barr 1:43
Well, you know, Jules Roth is the main character, and she's 24 years old. And so I don't know if you know this, but my background was 25 years as a journalist. So I was reporter in the Middle East for seven years, covering everything from, you know, celebrities to terrorism. So when I was there, I was sort of a young, idealistic journalist, and I was fearless. It was before I had my kids. And you know, any story, the more dangerous, the more exciting I was in, obviously, now I'm jaded and old and crusty and seasoned. But back then I was so idealistic. And, you know, I'm going after the truth, no matter what. So it was so great to be able to go back there to tap into that younger version of myself. So a lot of Jules is a lot of me. And even there's a backstory, which, you know, we could talk about a little bit later, but just to throw it in there. When I was in high school, I was used as bait to break a sex trafficking ring, which we did. And so I use that as Jules his backstory as well. So I, I was able to really put me into Jules, and I think that's how she came about.
Lainey 3:00
I would never have guessed that that part of her backstory was real. Like, to me, that seems so incredible.
Lisa Barr 3:06
Yeah, no real 100% Wow,
Lainey 3:09
Wow. Talk to me about the rest of the inspiration for the novel. I love that you do write about the art world. And I put in my own review that I felt like I got to, like, get an inside sneak peek of a world that I would never normally get to see and visit this high, our expensive art fast going back to World War Two in the Germany, like, how did all of that come together in your heads?
Lisa Barr 3:31
Well, first, thank you so much for that. Um, so my first novel, my debut novel was called Fugitive Colors, is called Fugitive Colors. And it was about stolen art. But from the artists perspective, so before I even started that book, I did four years of intensive research. I mean, I traveled, I was in Paris, you know, all over. And so I had that background. And as a journalist, using wearing my journalist hat, you sometimes become an expert at, you know, a quasi expert in a field. So I left no stone unturned in the stolen art Arena in World War Two. So and, you know, my middle book, which we can talk about was very different. But this book, I decided to go back to my roots and really explore it from a paintings perspective. There's so much on stolen art, and about so many families, you know, the legacy of Holocaust survivors in particular, or trying to get their stolen or lost or confiscated artwork back after 75 years, and many, many people are still locked in years long lawsuits trying to get their paintings back. So I tapped into that. And I also tapped into in 2012. There was in Germany in Munich, the discovery of 1500 major artworks in this rundown apartment in Munich and it turns out that These artworks belong to the son of Hitler's art thief. And his name was Cornelius Gurlitt, the Son and we're talking to likes a Picasso and Matisse, you know, found inside the stove in the food cabinets. I mean, totally crazy. And what happens to me when I know I find my story, I literally have this visceral reaction, I could feel my blood moving through me. And I'm panting, knowing this is my story. And so I use this as the nugget which it begins the book, and you have my sort of ruthless, crooked art dealer, basically stealing this treasure trove. But is it a theft, when you steal from the robber? You know, I don't know if that's how she justified it. But this was the beginning of the book, and kind of the news nugget, which is very important to me, I love news nuggets in my you know, in whatever I write, and
Lainey 6:01
I love how you set up these two female protagonists against each other like you say the art dealer who has questionable morals but justified in her mind, what she's doing, who's the the person who's able to steal this work, but then you've also got the journalist who's kind of coming at it from a sense of righteousness, right of I'm going to do the right thing by everybody. And I loved that you kind of explored some of those themes around how it's never quite as clear cut as that it's never as simple as you know, gray, black, white, it's never quite that simple in the real life, right. And so I love how you did that. And Jules has a growth curve, she a growth arc she's gonna go on, she's really putting herself at risk at the beginning of the book, and doesn't really care what anybody else thinks about what she's doing.
Lisa Barr 6:42
You know, you hit it on the nose. Jules has a growth curve. And really, so does Margaux de Laurent in her own way without giving away any spoilers, but truthfully, I loved writing Margaux. I mean, Margaux was bad and evil and sexy and, and ruthless. And, you know, you know, ask any author, that the evil characters are way more fun to write. And so yeah, you know, but at the same time, she had a lot of damage. And she had a lot of childhood trauma, no bad character is written well and less, there are parts of them that the reader can you know, connect to or find authentic, or, you know, feel a little bit compassion for for her. So it was very fun to set up this woman versus woman show down.
Lainey 7:33
This might be a fun time to ask you about genre because I love that to me, you've crossed genre, genre boundaries back and forth. And I think your your different books are different here. I would not argue if someone wanted to say Lainey, why are you putting a thriller book on the best of women's fiction hare? And I'd say, because I think it's both I think this book is both women's fiction. But yeah, it's a thriller. It's a page turner as well. But how do you think about it? You're the expert in this, how do you define genre? And do you even care? Like, how do you think about what genre of books are,
Lisa Barr 8:00
You know, I do care. But I've always been sort of this person. Like, I don't like being pigeon holed. From the beginning, I knew I wasn't just going to be able to write historical fiction. My first one's historical fiction. The Unbreakables is very sexy women's fiction and woman on fire, it does fit into your category, because there is a sense of women's fiction, and they call it almost a cross genre book. So you have definite history, you have art, you have suspense, but also very deep women, you know, characters that I really had to develop. So it isn't just, it's moving, it's moving. There's a pause there, there's a look into the psyches of each of these women characters and some very strong male characters as well. Now I'd like to add for me in the industry, I guess I'm known as a genre jumper. And that's okay. I'm good with that. And so I do need to sometimes warn my readers like, you know, a lot of the readers who love The Unbreakables, which was very sexy, there are some good sex scenes in this one, not quite The Unbreakables level. But definitely there are some in woman on fire. You know, I think as a writer, it's very important to be able to write, what drives you write what stimulates you, and if you do have a moment that you want to veer off track, I say go for it.
Lainey 9:25
No, I love that. And I love that you are very successful with what you've done. I think, especially for early writers and we have a lot of early writers who are kind of debuting or not yet debuting and listen to this podcast, I know because some of them write to me and ask me questions. And you know, we like to put people in boxes, right, especially before their first work comes out. A lot of agents will advise you, you know, you really got to define your box and stay within your box and so I love having someone on who has very successfully crossed genres back and forth.
Lisa Barr 9:51
So you know, I'm, I'm sort of a hybrid I, I outline it I know where I want to go, but once I jump in the character Take me various places. I knew I needed to get certain news aspects and newsy angles that that had to be on point everything factually correct. Interestingly, I had another back story at the beginning. And my editor said, You know what, I know, this is going to be hard for you to let this go. But I, I think we need to let this go. Because, you know, there was a point in this book with Jules, that there was sort of a meat to type of backstory. And so she felt well, while that was important, it shifted the emphasis of the book. But so it was very hard for me to let that go, I mean, I toss my turn. But at the end of the day, she was right. So that was a big edit for me to take out that because, you know, once one part of the thread is taken out, you know, it becomes like a dominant reaction. So you know, sometimes, as a writer, you have to leave it to the pros, who know, and who could, you know, you're so attached to it, you love these characters, you believe these characters, you dream these characters, and you know, how you let go an important part of their background is hard. But I've been around the block enough times to know, and I've worked as an editor myself, that I know that that needed to be done.
Lainey 11:21
So that's a great bridge into one of the questions I love to ask, which is writing advice. And you have been so successful with your books, they're fabulous. They're amazing. If anyone hasn't read Lisa's books, go read this one or any of the previous ones. And I've been wanting to have Lisa on for a while you guys don't know that, like I was just telling her before we started. So writing advice.
Lisa Barr 11:40
I think, obviously, we all have our different experiences, but rejection, you know, especially for writers, we've got to be the most sensitive people round. So it's a tough business for sensitive people. And you just have to remember one, it's, it's all to make the book better, you know, and if you're rejected, do not take no for an answer. Sometimes there's so many doors that get closed and slammed, and it hurts. And you just have to remember you have to believe in yourself and believe in your work. And know that there is going to be an open window, it will happen if you love it, if you're following your passion. If this is what you have to do, because it's breathing for you, you need to just go for it. And I also say, start to get a writing community build, you know, like with what you're doing, become part of a writing community, whether it's on Facebook or Instagram, you know, follow the authors you love. I think a big mistake, say writers who are trying new writers are trying to get their book out in the world, they might pitch you know, the agents, they think that they, they they hear about. But it's very important to find out which agents like your drop your genre, which agents are looking. And so say for example, I there's a historical fiction writer that I love, I will look at the back of the book and see who she's thinking, and I'll see who her agent is. And then I work from there. Don't go out blind without doing your research. To be a successful author. You've got to do your research. And you've got to make sure you're pitching to the right people who are going to want to read your book. So that's one thing builds your community and that doesn't, you're not going to have your community. You know, it's a Monday and by Friday, you have your community. It doesn't work like that Gordon is writing can be lonely, okay, super lonely. I write, you know, I know COVID Put a kibosh on it. But now I'm sort of back in again, I write in a cafe, I need airborn conversation around me. So I'm not stuck in my house in the corner. You know, the dogs looking at me, the laundry is looking at me, the empty refrigerator, my kids calling me night and day, it's just, you know, I will get nothing done. So get out of your house if you can, because there's so many things that are demanding, you know, demanded of you in your house. And so I go in a cafe, I also work with another author, she does her thing, I do mine, we have 10 minutes, we're like, we go back and forth. And we connect, we talk about our kids and we talk about things, drink our coffee, and then we're on but it's just like having that person looking over my top of my laptop, and she's there and she's on her phone. She's doing her research, it really makes it that much better. So try to get rid of the lonely factor by finding someone anyone who could you know, go along the journey with you and and who's alive. Because, you know, you can meet so many people, you know, on social media, and in this sort of social media world, but you need a live person that you could actually touch their arm or touch, you know, fist bump Then what do you need to do?
Lainey 15:02
I agree and, and I never talked about this on the podcast, but if anyone's not familiar, it's not quite live as in fist bump, which I agree, I love meeting people in person. We do it in San Miguel here. But um, women's fiction writers Association actually has zoom right in almost every day of the week, where groups of writers get together and do exactly what you said, they start by saying, Hi, how's everybody doing? What's everybody going to work on? And then they work independently, but they're there on the Zooms one last
Lisa Barr 15:29
thing that I do, and I think it's great for writers, if they have kids, especially, it's very hard to find stolen time, if you can get up an hour earlier, before your crew gets up. It's like, the golden hour. Okay. I mean, I, I appreciate that so much that time before my whole crew is up, and everybody needs something. So if you can find that stolen hour, that's very key. And and it's something you can depend on and look forward to. So I recommend that as well. Everybody's gonna
Lainey 16:05
find that so helpful. Is there anything I haven't asked you about relative to this book that you like to talk about?
Lisa Barr 16:12
You know, just how important it is? To get your characters how they can connect with each other? For me, I, you know, before I write, I kind of make a list like, who does my who is my character? What does she like to eat? How does she smell her scent? I should say, you know, his sense, you know, I think it's so important to write a composite for each of your characters. And also, do you remember his kids, you had those, those worksheets, where you drew lines? Like how things connected to each other? I also do that, for what what things do my characters have in common? Like, what will they connect on? as the book goes forward? So I think that that might be a really helpful thing to do. One thing that I want to mention, you know, writing a sex scene, I like to talk about that. And a lot of authors shy away from it. And I gravitate toward it because writing a sex scene, it's not about what's going on, or the like, the physical intimacies. It's what's going on around it, how does it move your character forward? How does it what are the thoughts that are going on in their head, that actually moves the story. So a lot of people I know are, they kind of really shy away from writing a very strong, good sex scene. But the best sex scenes are the ones where it is actually propelling the story further, and you get to really know not just you know, what your character enjoys, but what your character thinks about and their most deepest thoughts and the most intimate moments. So I think that that's really,
Lainey 17:53
I'm sure anyone who's writer who's listening. And also I know that readers who are listening are like, I need to go read the The Unbreakables with the hot and steamy sex in it. But I would say read both read that and read women on fire. It's fabulous. It's a page turner, I felt like I was inside the world of art. And there were a lot of things I didn't know, the whole idea of like for sales. I was familiar with that the idea that you had these Jewish families who kind of were forced to do the paperwork to sell their art, but it was never something they wanted to do. And so you educated me, I also felt like I learned a lot from this book.
Lisa Barr 18:25
That's music to my ears, especially with historical fiction or history. The key is you want people to have a takeaway and learn something. So if I gave you that you just made my day now everybody
Lainey 18:37
else can read this book. And if you want to find my my review, it's up on BookBub and Goodreads and everywhere we put reviews, so you're the best. Thank you. So thank you so much for joining me, Lisa. This has been a blast, and I'm so glad I finally got to have you on.
Lisa Barr 18:49
Yes, me too. Thank you for inviting me and thanks for all you do for authors. It means so much to me and I know to everyone I know who's been on your show. It really means a lot.
Lainey
Thank you.