Episode 77: Colleen van Niekerk, author of A Conspiracy of Mothers
Colleen van Niekerk, author of A Conspiracy of Mothers, talks about the inspiration for a novel set in South Africa, which tells the story of three mothers whose lives intersect during a generation-defining period in history.
A Conspiracy of Mothers tells a story of love and betrayal from multiple perspectives, balancing the painful legacy of apartheid with the trials of motherhood.
Books Mentioned:
A Conspiracy of Mothers by Colleen van Niekerk
The Quiet American by Graham Greene
Disorientation: Being Black in the World by Ian Williams
Connect with the author:
Transcript:
** Transcript created using AI (so please forgive the typos!) **
Lainey Cameron 0:00
Hey, this is Lainey Cameron. I am here with Colleen van Niekerk and Colleen, I adored this book, I loved the fact that it took me to South Africa inside a set of struggles, I have relatively little understanding of, I mean, like, Yes, we all understand the concept of apartheid at the historical level. But it's not something I have as part of my emotional history. And the way you took us through to three generations of women, and how each of them was wounded in different ways, and how they're all trying to kind of, as you would want to move beyond it, but are struggling with some of that past, which is some of which is not even their own past. It's generations have passed. Like, wow, this novel is outstanding. Congratulations,
Colleen van Niekerk 0:47
you so much. Thank you. Thanks very much.
Lainey Cameron 0:50
So where are you joining me from today?
Colleen van Niekerk 0:53
So in Vancouver, Canada, that's where I am. That's where I live currently, obviously, I'm South African, but left in my 30s and kind of migrated over to North America. So yes, so in rainy you know, the seven day rain, biblical proportion, rain. BC.
Lainey Cameron 1:11
So for folks who haven't read a conspiracy of mothers, many try and tell them a little bit about this book, it's actually it's a hard one to summarize in a very small, like, I was trying to describe it to someone yesterday, because I loved it this much. And it took me like two minutes. And so I'm really interested to see how do you explain this book to someone who might not yet be familiar with it?
Colleen van Niekerk 1:34
Right. So it's, it's really a story about coming home, you know, that that's the underlying theme, what are the underlying themes for every character, and the protagonist is a woman who in 1994, in South Africa, at sort of, on the verge of democratic elections in our country, which was a huge deal, because this was sort of the political end of apartheid. She'd been out of the country for 18 years, she had left a newborn child behind, and, you know, through various circumstances, she's drawn back, and she turns to the country, but that act of return, you know, kind of triggers this whole string of events that really brings her and her you know, her family, daughter, her mother, face to face with the past and the consequences, you know, of actions taken, you know, to two decades previously. So that's, you know, that's kind of the journey that we that we go on with her through the story.
Lainey Cameron 2:21
And it's got three point of view characters. Is that right? Is there more than three?
Colleen van Niekerk 2:26
I think there's five, this five, but the main one already? Yes.
Lainey Cameron 2:32
The three generations so we hear from the perspective of her daughter and her mother. And that was so powerful to me like those those perspectives, how are you we're seeing it across the generations, you portrayed it so well, like I like I said, I adored this book. So so let's take a quick look at a review. Because I always like to give a perspective from and this is the number one reviewer on Goodreads for your book. And I thought like Daniel captured it so well. And the review says this extremely moving novel examines the debilitating effects of apartheid. From an intensely personal perspective. The story focuses on three generations of women in the same family, their saga that spans continents, and lays bare the consequences of organizing a society by racial classifications, beautifully written and has strands of maternal love, spiritual connection, and a touch of magic visions the author has presented presented us with a sweeping vision of a society struggling with itself as it lurches forward in the hopes of overcome coming the difficulties of its past history. And I loved that review, because there are so many different themes in this book, like this is a brilliant book club book, but it would also be a brilliant University study book because you're dealing with themes of shame of inherited history. I mean, how on earth do you, I'm gonna skip ahead, your question I asked like, how on earth do you edit a book like that? Like were all of those themes in the original book? Or did you kind of weave them in as you went through through revisions?
Colleen van Niekerk 4:08
Definitely, sort of one of them. And I mean, it took a decade to write it. And I think that's kind of the average for any debut or, you know, novelist takes takes that long to kind of figure out what you're doing. But it didn't, a lot of those things became evident as I was kind of writing the story and realizing, like, you know, the realization that that's that shame is so much a part of this wasn't evident until, you know, well into the first you know, a few drafts, and then sort of trying to kind of tease out what what do the characters do, you know, what, how and that kind of, you know, sort of propels other, you know, other actions and that leads to other themes and other realizations that kind of get woven in. So it very much was a work in progress over time, taking time to just, you know, to kind of think this through and place it in that context as well of the country and really understand what would happen here with these with these characters and the circumstances.
Lainey Cameron 4:56
I saw in your book club questions that one of the questions centered around this idea of how shame is used to kind of reinforce systems of racism? And I've never really thought about that before. Can you talk about that a little bit more?
Colleen van Niekerk 5:11
Absolutely. So it's one of those things where, you know, like race and racism, especially now in this time with this the realization around social justice for us, there's, it's obviously a very heated and intense space for a lot of us to engage in. And if you kind of really take a good long look at it from all perspectives, it really doesn't matter what race you are, shame is always there in how you feel when people are behaving that way, you know, if you're someone of color towards you, in how you feel, if you're witnessing it, there's a lot of but it is always the underlying sort of tool that gets that gets kind of employed, in service really, of racism. So we should really think more about that, you know, I think it really Bears Bears consideration.
Lainey Cameron 5:52
So what about the inspiration? Because like I said, there's so many themes in here, and you do have a character who comes to the US your main character, Yolanda is coming to the US from South Africa, like you say, she left her baby behind? Was that part of what inspired you your own journey to come to the US? Or was it something else? Like, where did this whole idea kind of the genesis of it come from?
Colleen van Niekerk 6:14
So it very much, it's odd, because, you know, originally, my husband and I immigrated we moved to the States, we were there, in fact, in Virginia for a period of time. And, you know, what I wanted to understand was what home meant, because I was looking at it from the perspective of an immigrant and home is completely redefined. Right, when, when you have left what you know, so that was part of it. And that was kind of the kernel of the story, as well as really wanting to understand. So Africa, and just the society that I'd grown up in where all these things just kind of happened. And that was par for the course. And that's the same for any of us anywhere, wanting to really figure out what why do we use the names that we use for different people? And, you know, why did we have the structures that we had, you know, so it was, it was a matter of sort of understanding my country, from a different outside perspective, to better know my own history, in many ways.
Lainey Cameron 7:04
I definitely can relate to that lame, originally from Scotland. And now we live in the States, and we're nomads. So we travel the world. And every time I leave a location, it does change my perspective on where I've come from. And also, as you learn new cultures, that kind of gives you a different perspective on your own culture each time you appreciate how it's different in a different place. Yeah,
Colleen van Niekerk 7:24
that's right. So,
Lainey Cameron 7:26
so many questions, like, I don't know where to start with this, like, so it changed during editing, like, did it change a lot from the original version over those 10 years?
Colleen van Niekerk 7:35
You know, it didn't, the I'm one of those folks who like I'm fully I'm a pencil, you know, if it arrived to the people who outline and people are pencils, and I'm a pantser, so I kind of you know, will focus on characters and listening to what they have to say and who they are. And I think the characters were always pretty clear. They were no major, like, the main conflict, the main, you know, the main directors were there from the start, it was just a matter of trying to figure out the craft of actually conveying the story. So, you know, I'm pleased with that, and working with the publishers, while they were very gracious in that to you just allowing the story to unfold in this way. So I'm happy that you know, it kind of kept to the original sort of idea.
Lainey Cameron 8:14
And as you're, they're taking it out to like readers, and you're getting this great feedback about the book, is there anything you've appreciated, or has been interesting to you, and how people have reacted to it?
Colleen van Niekerk 8:25
You know, I think, you know, especially as a debut author, you don't quite know what you're what you're getting into, and especially when you write about race even more. So I think, overwhelmingly, I've just been deeply just satisfied with people's, you know, risk, like emotional response to the story. I had hoped, you know, it was a challenge, you know, for me, that I'd say to myself to write a story about South Africa, for a non South African audience, we have a hugely complicated society, you know, complex history, and I wanted to convey that in a way that everyone would understand. And I feel like I've done that, but just having people say, you know, I didn't understand I remember reading a review, and I generally don't, but this one just stayed with me. This was an older woman who had said, you know, I've lived in the South, I've lived in Alabama, you know, and I just, I didn't understand how I felt you know, what racism felt like, I was like, my work is done, you know, that's, you know, that that's kind of the the aim is to feel things because then we can change behavior if we can feel what the other side is like, right?
Lainey Cameron 9:22
And like, like South Africa's history is so interesting with apartheid in that it wasn't like two classes of race like apartheid tried really hard to create multiple classes and then create discord between the classes and I feel like you I don't know if classes the right word, like all words are kind of a little fraught here. But like, like stratification, maybe is a better way to say it, but like, but it was class as well. Right? Like you have different rights and depending on which tier Have you were stratified into. And yeah, I think that's not well understood outside of South Africa. Like even though people are familiar with the concept that apartheid give different different rights and privileges or lack of privileges to different tears. I don't think like the gist of how that really felt from insight is something the rest of us have had the chance to really get insight in live and your novel, explain that. And, like you said, got me feeling that and understanding what that must feel like to live with. And obviously, it's only a tiny, tiny intro into a world that I will never live. But I really felt like my own understanding was so much better through reading this novel. Good,
Colleen van Niekerk 10:27
thank you.
Lainey Cameron 10:28
So I'm interested in the magical realism, I noticed this gets picked up quite a bit in your reviews. And it's I loved it, I loved the concept that the grandmother is really connected to the earth and really connected to the planet. And I thought and animals and I thought it was a superb choice. I'm really interested, because it's an interesting choice, right? You've got this model that is mostly contemporary, but you decided to include some, I don't even know if magical realism is the right answer, like right wording for it. Yeah. Like, can you talk a little bit more about that decision as an author?
Colleen van Niekerk 11:04
Sure. So, you know, I wanted to let you know, the suite operates at lots of different levels, and I kind of wanted to pay homage to the First Nations culture in South Africa as well, you know, which is just hugely denigrated, and ignored, and, and, you know, just not given any kind of status or any kind of regard. And it's, you know, and the challenge there is that not a lot of it was documented. So it's tough for us to sort of know, you know, what, how did they learn? How did they think what did they believe so I kind of, you know, did my research in that regard, for sure. But I wanted to bring that element forward. And, you know, it had to be imagining it had to kind of occupy the space of, of magic realism, to kind of have it be tied into the story and have it have relevance. But it's very much, you know, just wanting to provide the view that we had, you know, through colonization and settlement, all of these things were also lost. So apartheid happened at lots of different levels within society. And it happened, you know, the roots are far older than just the political institution and the legislative acts. So that was there. And frankly, I just, I enjoy magic realism. I've read it a great deal. My like, you know, like speculative fiction, and I wanted to bring that in. But, but you're right. It's not it's not, you know, it's not Gabriel Garcia Marquez, you know, magical realism in that kind of way. It operates differently. And the intent is also there to provide that other dimension and other lessons, the slave applicability to the kind of court the story.
Lainey Cameron 12:29
Yeah, I would, I would have described it as like a touch of magical realism. It's not like, it's not front and center in that the story couldn't operate without it. But to me, it added to the book, and it added to the richness of this novel. Yeah. Right. Right. So. So this novel is, like I said, I'm hugely touched and feel educated and enriched by it. And I adored reading it too. What do you advise someone who is going to go through that possibly 10 year journey of writing a debut novel, maybe even wants to write like you have about a topic that people may not be deeply familiar with? Like, do you have lessons you've learned as you approach this that you might want to share?
Colleen van Niekerk 13:10
Absolutely, I think one of the benefits of you know, I'm in my 40s, one of the benefits of publishing, when you're older, is you've had time to know who you are, and get to know who you are, and what you have to say and why. And I think that's, you know, irrespective of age, I think that's the fundamental sort of action that that writers should take. And frankly, any artist is, understand your own voice and what you have to say, regardless of you know, what, whatever social constructs might tell you about what's what's appropriate, and what sells and whatever the situation is, because, you know, you have to I'll give you an example. I'll segue for a second I was reading The Quiet American the other day about by Graham Greene, I think it was the second time I read it, it was published in 1955. And a soul has such resonance today. And it just made me realize that what you publish is there for the ages, as long as books are out there, whether they're you know, Kindle format or hardback, they're out there. And you have to have that perspective of you need to be you know, prepared to do the work to put something out there that is you for, you know, beyond your lifetime. And if you think about it in that way, I think that sounds serious and big, but that really kind of frames that in the context of, you know, you need to be yourself you need to be authentic, and you need to be clear about what you have to say and how
Lainey Cameron 14:26
did you did you have to do anything to find your voice like, like, to me your voice came through very clearly. But did you have to do anything to like find that voice that you felt was uniquely you?
Colleen van Niekerk 14:39
You know, I think I think I went through the usual kind of rigmarole of writing workshops and conferences and kind of wanting to, you know, learn the craft of it. But it's one of those things where, honestly, just editing and rewriting because you're working on it's so so often that you like this is this sounds like how I wanted to sound and this doesn't like $1 down to the sentence for this book. And so I think it's actually just the doing of it, you know, it's an extraordinary amount of work to publish to to get a book out there. And it's it's, you know, and it's hard because you kind of I'll do I do I change this is this is this what I want to say? What's the impact of it, but it's literally just the act of doing helps you hone you know, it's like sculpting you do it often enough, and you know exactly what you can, what you can cut and what you can keep an eye on the shape with, you know, what your skills are. And it's the same action here as well.
Lainey Cameron 15:28
I can relate to that. Yeah, I was just having that conversation on a different podcast yesterday about what what do I advise people who are starting it and I was like, do it as opposed to reading about doing it? Because writing and revising and revising, do you really find what you want it to say? And what your own voices and yeah, it's, it's hard, I kind of wish someone had told me that early on, I went the other path and tried to read all the stuff and that was the wrong way to go reading all the crap. So what impresses you have you read anything recently that you would want to highlight for our listeners?
Colleen van Niekerk 16:00
There's been a really interesting book. I know there are a lot of books on on social justice that are out there. But there's a book by Canadian author Ian Williams that I'm in the middle of called Disorientation, which is really really good. Like he has such a different personal take with really interesting perspectives to offer on this topic. You know, he's he's writing about his own background and, and how he sees the world you know, as as a as a man is Trinidadian and Canadian, and has lived in many different places. So I think that's definitely a worthy read.
Lainey Cameron 16:29
Oh, I want to read it. I actually met him in San Miguel, he spoke at the Senegal Writers Conference, he gave one of the keynotes and he was fascinating. So okay, yeah, adding that one to my list right now. Um, so before we wrap up, I always like to ask, is there anything I haven't asked you that you want to talk about? And especially because this is such a deep book, it covers, like I said, so many themes? Is there anything that you were taught, you know, if you're talking to someone who doesn't know, the book that I haven't asked you that you might want to cover?
Colleen van Niekerk 16:59
I mean, I think that, you know, the only thing that that I would say, and I think we've kind of touched on this is, is to just is bring someone say this to me the other day, in fact that this book is accessible, you know, and I was like, I never thought about it in that way. Like, you don't need to be literally anything to kind of, to kind of get to grips with this book. And I would say to people, you know, don't be intimidated by by the the subject matter, you know, approach the book, just out of curiosity, which, frankly, is probably the best way to approach any piece of literature. And you know, and enjoy it, it's there to kind of sweep you along and, and take you on the journey. So, you know, I wish everyone well in doing so.
Lainey Cameron 17:36
Oh, I love that. And it is it's immersive. It's a very immersive book, like you say, I feel like I was swept along in the journey. And I will admit that I'm not huge into literary fiction, like it's one of my little dirty secrets that I'm more commercial than literary even in what I read. And so I would definitely tell people that this is not a hybrid book that you're going to struggle to read it. So the Mersey, that's going to take you on a journey. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. So let's take a quick a quick peek at how people can connect with you. We'll put all the links in the show notes on the website on best of best of women's fiction.com. And also the link to Ian's book, but your your website, your own Instagram. You're at Colleen author, Double L E N author on Instagram, and then calling van Niekerk on.com for your website, and all your other social media are up there. And is there anything that do you like to do book clubs? Is there anything that readers should know about how you'd like to engage with them?
Colleen van Niekerk 18:35
I do I really enjoy it. I think of all the different interactions that are there I love book clubs because you with people who are you know, are reading and I've kind of gone through that road. So yeah, I have a contact form on my website. I'm you know, on Twitter, as well as Instagram. Definitely reach out. Feedback is good. You know, I'm happy to chat with folks as well. And answer questions. My pleasure.
Lainey Cameron 18:56
Awesome. Well, it's been an absolute pleasure to chat with you today. And I couldn't read more about this book. I'm off to write my review. I need to get it done. But thank you for taking the time to join me on the podcast here. I really appreciate it.
Colleen van Niekerk 19:09
No problem. Thanks so much for having me.